Better than sex?

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Re: Better than sex?

Postby Greybeard » Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:19 am

Lorne,
The painting the rad was one of the thing I put in my list to do when I first saw the pics from the seller last year. As it turned out, the motor wasn't in the condition I was led to believe. So I've got it totally redone now, and get to start working on a rather long list of nits.

Art,
I'm kind of old school. For 50 years or so, we've been drilling holes in the front butterflies on Holleys, or some choose to buy the blades from Holley with the holes already in them. If this was a 4 corner Holley it probably wouldn't be nesessary as the back barrels would have an idle circuit. My thinking is that idle is already poor with the air and fuel mixing in the same vicinity. The idle that puts such a huge grin on our faces, is lean misfire. So why would I want to be introducing air several inches away from where the fuel is? In the manifold, under the primaries you would find a rich mixture, and under the secondaries there would be a very lean mixture. We staggerjet carbs to cure cylinder to cylinder mixture distribution differences that are occurring under full throttle and the highest velocities through the carb. However, perhaps we could maintain or enhance all the idle nastiness, while closing up the primary so that the idle transition circuit would come in properly. I'll have to consider that one. :?
In the '60s, I'll admit that all my carb work was around getting the highest mph at the track, and it was done by changing jets. If it would start and move to the line, and go fast down track, all was good. Gas was cheap, and I left my "give a $hit" about economy over there somewhere. All about "go fast." However, I spent some time with a real Holley Guru, and he went about things differently than I had. Idle circuits were about idle. Idle transition circuits were there for the tip in off idle. There are fuel and air bleeds to modify the fuel curve if nesessary. The jets in the primary are there for cruise mixture. Yes, we can short cut and use them just like the secondary jets for full throttle only, but that's not how the carb was built to work. the PV system is there for enrichment under full throttle. They are found in the secondary side of mechanical carbs because the secondary's may be partially open under circumstances that don't require full rich. Most people just jet the secondary for full throttle mixture as they weren't intended to operate under cruise conditions. PVs are seldom found in the secondaries on vacumm opened secondaries, but that is not an absolute. Your friend, who went back to the 6.5" PV was in all probability using it to mask a problem with the idle transition circuit not right, or the accelerator pump circuit cam or shooters not properly chosen. Full throttle air/fuel mixture should be about 12.5-1, idle @ 13.5 to 14-1, and cruise 14.5 or a tad higher. The idle transition circuit is not there to fatten the mixture, but to prevent a lean out, and carry until fuel starts out of the boosters. NThe accelerator circuit likewise is there to prevent leanout, not enrich. Old school, as well as Holley, says to choose a PV# 1/2 the idle vacumm. As mine was idling @ 10" in neutral, the 4.5" PV seemed appropriate. I havent got my dizzy on the machine yet, my total timing is 38*. Comp recommends 18 initial.
Sorry for the long winded reply. Us old guys can just go on and on, so I'm told.
Mike
Last edited by Greybeard on Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
1937 Chev 2dr sedan
1966 Chevy El Camino (daily driver w/300K miles)
1966 Chevy V8 Corvair https://greybeard.shutterfly.com
1972 Vega GT
1985 Corvette
1999 Safari Sahara 30' with Cat 330
1999 Jeep Cherokee 'toad'
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Re: Better than sex?

Postby firebird77clone » Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:46 am

Having read the entire thread, I reach two unequivocal conclusions:

Your car is the $hit!

And...

You aren't doing it right in the sack.

Sex should be the better.
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Re: Better than sex?

Postby Greybeard » Mon Jan 19, 2015 10:42 am

firebird77clone wrote:Having read the entire thread, I reach two unequivocal conclusions:

Your car is the $hit!


Thanks. I'm really thrilled with it. Way better than my expectations.

firebird77clone wrote:you aren't doing it right in the sack


I'm really thrilled with my sack time too. She's 29 years younger, Italian, and in her sexual prime. But after an hour or two, I wanta go play with my car. :wink:
1937 Chev 2dr sedan
1966 Chevy El Camino (daily driver w/300K miles)
1966 Chevy V8 Corvair https://greybeard.shutterfly.com
1972 Vega GT
1985 Corvette
1999 Safari Sahara 30' with Cat 330
1999 Jeep Cherokee 'toad'
Next: 1964 289 slabside Cobra, LS525 power
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Re: Better than sex?

Postby chevyart » Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:54 pm

mike: first off, your car is a real beauty. think i saw it on you tube.im an old timer too, 71 yrs old, but from what you explained, you are more advanced than me with the holley carbs. i really dont know or under.. stand the idle circuits. nowadays we can just screw in the hi and low speed air bleeds to help us along to a good mixture along with all the other parts of the carb that everybody changes around.. just got a new(used) hollet 950 for my race car and the rear butterflies are drilled out at the factory by holley. that was a surprise. im a firm believer in using the front power valve in my race car to help me idle around the pits. alot of guys dont believe in this and just run around with the bigger jets in the front and idle it. real high( i guess). the guys that dont use the front power valves believe that a power valve could not work properly and not open at high speeds and lean out the engine(bang). im sticking with mine and are casreful with the one i use. rule of thumb on that issue is vacuum reading over 10, go with a size half the number of reading( 10=5). usualy any reading over 10, just use a 6.5 power valve and it will be fine(i think even holley says this_).its a little more critical in lower vacuum race engines. for lower readings below 6.5, you should go down aprox. 1 size for the power valve(6.5==5.5 pv).my car has about 14-1 compression and i worry about my choice of power valve. my vacuum reading is only around 5.5 to 6 inches and i use a 3.5 pv, and i will up it to a 4.5 pv before this race season. what is your take on power valves in race only engines. Im listening. art
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Re: Better than sex?

Postby Greybeard » Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:01 pm

Thanks Art
My take on PV on race cars is there really is no downside. PV failure is just full rich. End up running around in the pits with the same kind of fuel mixture those guys with them blocked off have. You might want to put a vacumm gauge on it some time to see what you have running around in the pits, and down the return road. It's a race car, you don't have to pick it to death as mileage isn't the issue. Helping keep the plugs from fouling is your goal.
I don't know what rpm you see in the pits, or down the return road. I'd guess though that you'll be on the idle transfer circuit a good bit of the time. I would pay a little extra attention in that area. No rocket science here. Set both front and back so you see a little square showing in the idle transfer port. Seat the isle screws and back out 1.5 turns. If when you start it you have enough idle speed, always turn all four screws an aqual amount, in or out, to adjust mixture. If you have insufficient idle speed, do the same thing with the idle speed adjustment. Here's is where it gets trickier. About a half turn on the idle speed screws doesn't screw up the idle transfer too much. It was perfect when a little square showed, and you are moving toward less perfect. If the idle speed is too fast, make your idle mixture adjustments with it running fast, and then take the rpm out of it with the back barrels.
Race engines are about WOT, so in my opinion you do a few things in prep and make your first adjustments by the book. If they arent working, you abandon the book and everything else you read and just make it work for you. The worst thing that can happen is you have to change plugs more often.
My car is not a race car first, so I'm into making its street manners better. If it falls on its face in the enter section, some a--hole may run over me. My first drive I probably restarted a half dozen times. I drove through town left footing the brake and dancing with the throttle to keep from becoming a roadblock. At least in the pits, the person behind you isn't texting or trying to find their favorite CD, or putting on their make-up lol.
1937 Chev 2dr sedan
1966 Chevy El Camino (daily driver w/300K miles)
1966 Chevy V8 Corvair https://greybeard.shutterfly.com
1972 Vega GT
1985 Corvette
1999 Safari Sahara 30' with Cat 330
1999 Jeep Cherokee 'toad'
Next: 1964 289 slabside Cobra, LS525 power
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Re: Better than sex?

Postby chevyart » Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:27 pm

thanks mike ill save this last post for when i set up the new holley 950. i will adjust the idle screws before installing the carb and go from there. i always felt that a bad power valve goes rich, as you just said, but one merchant of doom on speed talk said that if the power valve goes bad at high speed, thew car could lean out.(guess he thinks it can go bad by closing). can that happen?. that is the thought that sticks in the back of my head.good luck in getting your car to be nice and calm on the street. art
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Re: Better than sex?

Postby Greybeard » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:31 pm

I can't imagine how that could happen. You need vacumm on the diaphragm for it to pull closed. Default is rich. Blown diaphragm, rich again. You'd have to have high vacumm to pull it closed, and that doesn't happen at full song.
Ive never heard of that happening.
1937 Chev 2dr sedan
1966 Chevy El Camino (daily driver w/300K miles)
1966 Chevy V8 Corvair https://greybeard.shutterfly.com
1972 Vega GT
1985 Corvette
1999 Safari Sahara 30' with Cat 330
1999 Jeep Cherokee 'toad'
Next: 1964 289 slabside Cobra, LS525 power
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Re: Better than sex?

Postby chevyart » Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:16 am

thanks mike. think im set now. wont have any holley gremlins running around in my head. good idea about trying a vacuum gauge while running around the pits, and maybe even down the track at WOT. someone else on speed talk had suggested the gauge idea also, just as you suggested. i guess i could sneak a gauge in the car and take a peek while going down the track and just cruising around the pits. talk soon art
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Re: Better than sex?

Postby HR102 » Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:16 pm

A fun read, Greybeard! Just the thing to get us all in the mood for some warm, dry pavement, as soon as it shows up in another few months. All I can do now, is go out to the garage and warm the engine for a few minutes each month, until then.

Mel
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Re: Better than sex?

Postby mahoy78spyder » Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:33 am

Mel, not to hijack this thread, but you really need to do a feature on all the mods to your car! Start your own thread somewhere of your choosing if you'd like. Inquiring minds like myself would LOVE to see/hear more about that awesome car of yours!

Ok... back to regular scheduled programming... :lol:
Ken Mahoy
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Re: Better than sex?

Postby HR102 » Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:22 am

Ok Ken, thanks for the compliment! I'll see what I can put together. I've owned this '77 since it was new and it was fully modified like this by 1980.

Mel
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