Nameless 1972 Vega Kammaback V8 4 Speed

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Re: Nameless 1972 Vega Kammaback V8 4 Speed

Postby burnouts&rotorblades » Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:34 pm

hammerdown7 wrote:A Vega/Monza rear sway bar would have been much simpler, either stock or after-market. All you would have needed is a pair of lower control arms with the mounting holes and spacers.

Dick


I understand; installing parts for the car that were designed for the car would have been easier. You are 100% correct. My question is, how easy is it to come across those parts in good condition in my (or most peoples') area? I'm not trying to be defensive. Even though, no matter haw many times I re-edit my above comments, it comes across that way. My point is to say, if I walk into my very well equipped local junkyard, there are no Vega sway bars, or Vegas for that matter, to be found. There are about 10 bazillion Blazers though. You are the source of much of the very best information on this forum. But my goal, however badly executed, was to find a modern and easily attainable (junkyard) solution to a common H-Body problem. I don't say this to stifle comments like yours. In fact, someone reading this will know from your comments there is an easier way. I am simply trying to convey my approach and intention. So, while installing the right part for the job where it was designed to fit would be the easier solution, I couldn't find an H-Body sway bar and lower arms within 100mi at the time I was looking. But s10's are a dime a dozen.

If I'm completely honest, I stole this approach from the Flying Turd build. I figured if it worked so well for that build, it might work for others.

I'm sorry if that was repetitive. The hotel has free drinks and I have taken full advantage.
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Re: Nameless 1972 Vega Kammaback V8 4 Speed

Postby hammerdown7 » Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:44 pm

I'm not bad-mouthing the work that you did to make the S10 bar work, yours was a very clever adaptation and it worked very well.

Dick
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Re: Nameless 1972 Vega Kammaback V8 4 Speed

Postby burnouts&rotorblades » Mon Mar 16, 2020 11:05 pm

hammerdown7 wrote:I'm not bad-mouthing the work that you did to make the S10 bar work, yours was a very clever adaptation and it worked very well.

Dick


Thank you, That means a great deal coming from you sir.
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Re: Nameless 1972 Vega Kammaback V8 4 Speed

Postby burnouts&rotorblades » Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:24 pm

My first Vega video has reached a new level.

It has garnered the scathing attention of Robert (Bob) Spinello. If you don't know who he is, check out this video featuring him and his beautifully preserved 1973 Vega (with original 30 year old tires). If you are bored, have a look at the barrage of comments he left. I've angered the purists, I must be doing something right, right?

No offense to purists in general, everyone has their tastes. Just mild amusement to kill some time with if you want to.

Bob Spinello Video: https://youtu.be/KO7oShmrNLg

My first Vega video: https://youtu.be/HXOuFv6SsFU
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Re: Nameless 1972 Vega Kammaback V8 4 Speed

Postby 283vega » Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:12 am

We have been through the bob thing on this site years ago .I think he was banned. It was over the same type of thing. Buy the way I love what you do with your vega and the videos , its true vega mind set and ingenuity .
283 vega
70 corvette


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Re: Nameless 1972 Vega Kammaback V8 4 Speed

Postby burnouts&rotorblades » Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:24 am

283vega wrote:We have been through the bob thing on this site years ago .I think he was banned. It was over the same type of thing. Buy the way I love what you do with your vega and the videos , its true vega mind set and ingenuity .


The feedback I have received pre-bob has been overwhelmingly positive and I am sure it will continue to be. 283Vega, I appreciate the kind words from you and all the comments, questions, and input from everyone! However, everyone who has put themselves out there and gains attention will gain some negative feedback. It's inevitable that a percent of any audience will be "haters." It's some peoples' form of entertainment. We call those people "Karens." #BobisaKaren.

I'm excited about it and I'm sure there are more Karens out there. Now I have to decide if I meet Sir bob, the internet troll dungeon master, with sarcasm and an equal level of ignorant trolling, or if I dismiss it keep myself above board. . . #theurgetotrollisstrong. Either way, I will not change what I'm doing in the garage and I have a ton of stuff planned that I am very excited about and I think you guys will really enjoy.
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Re: Nameless 1972 Vega Kammaback V8 4 Speed

Postby burnouts&rotorblades » Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:04 am

Exhaust Question:

We are limited on exhaust space with these cars. I was thinking about using the muffler linked below (a single 2.5" in/out bi-direction crossover muffler) and have the muffler act as both the crossover and muffler to tuck up right after the axle. I would probably have to wrap it and use some exhaust coating on the pipes to offset drone. What do you experts think?

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mpe-11379
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Re: Nameless 1972 Vega Kammaback V8 4 Speed

Postby NVEGAR8D » Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:28 pm

Hi B&R, that type of muffler setup has been used by a couple members with, as far as i know, good results.
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Re: Nameless 1972 Vega Kammaback V8 4 Speed

Postby vegastre » Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:17 pm

It has garnered the scathing attention of Robert (Bob) Spinello


Bob, Bob, Bob...
Let me preface this with saying I'm as far away from Bob as you can get, just look at my project journal. Defining Bob creates a whole new level of purity when it comes to the first Gen H-Body Vega's. He has a certain ire about him that rubs most people on this forum the wrong way and I will tell you why. The vast majority of members here have hacked these poor cars to death including myself. In a moment of truth I actually admire Bob for his rather rabid defense of the Vega. He has done it for years almost single handedly.

I drove my Silver 72 GT which was pure stock as a daily driver for a number of years. It never fail to get me from A to B and so dependable it was ridiculous. Great handling car regardless of what anyone says. Was the little car perfect? Far from it, the AC sucked, I put a larger radiator in it. up graded the shocks, and a few other things I can't remember. What am I saying? Bob has every right to defend the little car.

Sadly, Bob has to defend a car that had a bad rap sheet almost from the get go. Horror stories that are impossible to defend not the least of which was a car rushed into production and designed by GM to wear out as fast as possible. Poor Bob with is manic love of his little orange Vega somehow lead him to this forum which was the last place on the internet where he would be welcome.
Phil Kennedy~
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Re: Nameless 1972 Vega Kammaback V8 4 Speed

Postby burnouts&rotorblades » Sat Apr 18, 2020 2:46 pm

I view angering a purist as a milestone as a automotive content creator. It's somewhat of an accomplishment in my eyes as far as having reached enough people to catch the attention of one. I too have a respect for those on the spectrum of purists. It takes a lot of brain power to remember all the options and codes and son on. It's not the idealism but the militant attitude that purists get a bad rap for. We all put ourselves out there on the interwebs whether on forums, facebook, or youtube. With the anonymity of the keyboard, some people will voice an opposition to our own tastes, and that is fine. But the important idea, that all of us who modify cars have come to grips with is, It's my car. So, I laugh it off, and continue to enjoy my debaucherous indulgence in the hacking and ruining of my once pristine little Vega.

Speaking of Blazer spindle/brake upgrade. . .
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Re: Nameless 1972 Vega Kammaback V8 4 Speed

Postby burnouts&rotorblades » Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:49 pm

I want to put some notes here for myself on an upgrade that can be called many things.

S10 brake upgrade | Blazer spindle swap | 5 lug swap | Vega big brake upgrade |S10 rotors | S10 balljoint. If anyone else can think of other monikers this falls under, let me know.

The pint is to remedy the lackluster braking of the stock Chevrolet Vega by retrofitting the brakes from an S-chassis (s10/s15 pickup and blazers) to the Vega.

There are two primary ways to do it.

Way 1 -

Bob Gumm from V8 monza sells these balljoint adapters here (scroll down until you find them): http://www.v8monza.com/catalog/index.htm

It's pretty straight forward and makes the upgrade a bolt on affair. However, there are inherent issues and missed opportunities.

Way 2 -

In the threads linked below are in depth discussions about why swapping out the old Vega ball joints for newer S10 versions is a better idea and how it gives the opportunity to correct inherent problems with the Vega's suspension geometry and disparities with doing the S10 spindle swap. I have done some internet research on other modifications that will lead to the handling characteristics I want.

My takeaways are:

Vegas need more caster (my number come from internet research so those with practical experience please chime in.)
- swapping the upper arms from one side to the other is rumored to net you about 9 degrees of caster (more caster requires more muscle to steer with manual steering)
- The Vega's stock caster range is between -2.75 degrees to +1.25 degrees
- modern cars have 3-5 degrees of positive caster for power steering but angles of 7 or more aren't uncommon
- drift cars have between 7-14 degrees of positive caster
- Avoid doing this if you do not intend to add power steering
- moving the forward three holes in the upper arm to align the upper S10 balljoint into the stock position rear outboard hole will net you
- Install the balljoints without moving them forward and back if you want to keep stock manual steering

The Vega needs less negative camber
- move the upper balljoint outboard
- move the lower balljoint and sleeve inboard

The plan:

+ Upper Arms +
- Swap the upper arms side to side.
Upper balljoint
- hog the upper balljoint hole in the outboard direction.
- move the balljoint forward to reduce total caster

+ Lower arms +
- lower balljoint sleeve inboard .25" from center

Hbody Forum threads and links dealing with the swap:

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=23253&start=45

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=46214

Vega front suspension shop manual:

http://www.v8monza.com/documents/1971-7 ... mation.pdf

How to measure caster:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsYCvPmkCLI
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Re: Nameless 1972 Vega Kammaback V8 4 Speed

Postby Smiley » Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:32 am

There is not a lot of room on the control arm to move the upper ball joints outward when converting to S10 parts.
Originally I enlarged the big hole concentricly with a piloted holesaw, this position required grinding and curling the outer edge of the metal S10 boot retainer to clear the underside of the Vega upper control arm.
After lowering the car I had to move the S10 upper ball joints inward slightly to get the camber back in range of the cam bolts adjustment.
After doing the uppers twice I would enlarge the big hole inward starting from the outer edge.
On the lowers a 1" sleeve is too tall to let the ball joint come through enough to retain the grease boot.
I would make the hole in the lower control arm tight on the knurl of the ball joint and weld the sleeve on top.
then shorten the sleeve to the desired height.
TIG welding the sleeves on is reccemended.

You can get offset upper bushings if you are using Bob Gumm taper adapters or need to move the uppers out with the S10 ball joints.
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Re: Nameless 1972 Vega Kammaback V8 4 Speed

Postby burnouts&rotorblades » Sun Apr 19, 2020 5:18 pm

I had read somewhere that swapping the upper control arms would net some aggressive camber, somewhere in the 9 degree range. So, I measured the caster before and after swapping the upper control arms. I measured the caster on a 30 degree swing, 15 degrees in each direction of center with the car at ride height and weight on the suspension. I adjusted nothing else in the suspension and all hardware was tight. Once again, I'm putting all this stuff down so I don't forget later in addition to getting you guys to weigh in on it.

The total caster before swapping the uppers 1.6 degrees.

The total caster after swapping the uppers was 4.6 degrees.

You guys can do math, but the 3 degree gain was a bit underwhelming. So, I aligned the balljoint holes with the inboard-forward most hole to move the upper ball joint aft as much as practical. In the process it moved outboard was well but not bu more than an 1/16" or so. Total aft movement was in the 3/16ths range.

Total caster after it was all said and done was . . . a whopping 5 degrees.

Interestingly, I ended up with 4.5 degrees of positive camber. However, Both of my lower camber colts are at the maximum inboard setting. I rolled them out to the max the other way and ended up with 2 degrees negative camber. I'm at a stopping point for this weekend but I'll probably massage a couple degrees of negative camber back into the upper mount. Once again, the prevailing wisdom of not moving the upper Balljoint outboard, won.

Smiley wrote:On the lowers a 1" sleeve is too tall to let the ball joint come through enough to retain the grease boot.
I would make the hole in the lower control arm tight on the knurl of the ball joint and weld the sleeve on top.
then shorten the sleeve to the desired height.


So, I welded the balljoint sleeve in as-is. I knew before I did that I should cut the sleeve down but I think I was just in a hurry to weld something for the visual progress. Then, after reading this I pulled out the grinder and ground it back out of there. Luckily, the way I set it before welding in the before welding left me with plenty of meat to trim it to the .6" that will fit the Ball joint the best. Also, I learned my welds get pretty good penetration. So, thanks for the final push to do it the right way.

before.JPG
before cutting the sleeve down
before.JPG (72.08 KiB) Viewed 204 times


IMG_8072.JPG
After cutting the sleeve
IMG_8072.JPG (89.35 KiB) Viewed 204 times


Smiley wrote:TIG welding the sleeves on is recommended.


I have played with one for a couple hours and learned I don't know how to TIG weld. I wish I had a TIG or knew how to TIG.

Smiley wrote:You can get offset upper bushings if you are using Bob Gumm taper adapters or need to move the uppers out with the S10 ball joints.


I'm not using the Bob Gumm adaptors because I want to go all the way with the Blazer balljoints. I am demonstrating how to install them because Bob gave me a set to use in the video.

As for installing the lower balljoint sleeves:

I was told the smart way to do this was to put a 1.5" freeze plug in the original balljoint hole and use a piloted 2-1/16" hole saw to drill out the size needed for the sleeve and file to fit. I made an executive decision to ignore this sound advise do this the hard way. Simply because I can do it more easily on the car and I don't have to buy a hole saw and sacrificial freeze plugs. For those that may be watching the video for information the big takeaways are going to be cut it out however you can and FILE TO FIT!


After doing all the above measurements and work, I realized my suspension was nearly on the bump stops in the sense that the weight is not on the tires. So all the measurements I took were relative to where my car was on the jackstands. Jackstands are directly under the front shocks. I'll have to do all the measurements again with weight on the tires next weekend. Thoughts on the other work?
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Re: Nameless 1972 Vega Kammaback V8 4 Speed

Postby Kenova » Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:00 pm

Take it from someone who has a tendency to do things the hard way -- Buy the freeze plugs and hole saw! Especially if you want to do it on the car.
I also have hated buying hole saws because I figure I'll never use them again, but of the dozen or so hole saws I have only one was used just once. That one was used to cut a new hole for a toilet so probably doesn't count in our world. :lol:

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Re: Nameless 1972 Vega Kammaback V8 4 Speed

Postby burnouts&rotorblades » Mon May 11, 2020 10:50 pm

Brake lines:

The Vega has 3/8" brake line and associated fittings at the union of the front hard to soft line going out to the caliper. The 2001 Blazer spindles, the ones with the big 2 piston calipers, has a 10mm banjo fitting. 1983 Chevrolet Malibu front brake lines are the right fit and the ones I ordered (I'll change that to used when I know the install wen't as expected)

Length's are as follows:
2001 Blazer 313mm
1983 Malibu 310mm
1972 Vega stock 284mm

Poly Bushings:
The energy suspension kit ABSOLUTELY needs the furrel washers. They are covered at length in these two threads. I went the way of ordering them from Dave's Vega Village. He has two total posts in the forum under the name quarte6@telus.net. Calling him was the easiest way to order them. Be prepared to spend a few minutes on the phone. That's not a negative comment, just fair warning.

I did cover making them a couple different ways in the video. However, That is not easy without a lathe and the know-how to use one.

https://www.energysuspensionparts.com/i ... /17019.pdf

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=43953

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=30326&start=15

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=36705

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=31142
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