modifying the 140 2300 (what to do?)

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modifying the 140 2300 (what to do?)

Postby rhyolite » Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:45 am

Hi,

I'm planning to keep my astre as original as possible, so i'm keeping the 140 CID engine.
I want to modify the engine to get some more mileage out if it, not constantly driving creating blue smokescreens, blowing stuff up
or jump out out of the car looking for my fire distinguisher :)

After reading alot on the internet, i made a first assessment of what to do, can you help me by telling if this
is correct and sufficient, or to do something extra/else to keep the engine alive for a significant period and mileage :)

The engine ran 60K kilometers (around 35.000 miles) and was very well threated while on the road. But was neglected for
25 years in a crappy leaky barn.

The following things i have in mind :

- sleeving it
- new gaskets
- replace valve stem seals
- clean it, lubricate it, check everything :) (anything specific?)
- replace someting else? cylinders, valves, other engine parts? (no clue? :) )

edit :
- replace head studs? for something like this ( http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/a ... /overview/ )
or not really neccesary ?


other things i have read, but not sure if neccesary :

- replace the stock radiator for a bigger one (not really fond of this, because it's not original and a visible modification)
- replace the fan (for a metal one)
- place a airdam (correct name?) (underneath the front bumper, for improved airflow) (not original/visible)
- use special oils, coolant brand, etc?

Thanx and greetz,

Tiemen
The dutcH-bodies
- 1974 Vega hatchback
- 1975 Astre SJ Safari wagon
- 1975 Astre hatchback

- 1991 Jeep Wrangler YJ
- 1993 Jeep chief Cherokee XJ
- 1998 Chevrolet Camaro Y87 V6 3.8
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Re: modifying the 140 2300 (what to do?)

Postby kgroombr » Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:27 pm

I am all for keeping these original, but it is a challenge. It sounds like you are on the right track. I would make sure you evaluate everything you need to bring it back and find your parts before starting. Ebay seams to be the best place for hard to find parts these days, but put what you are looking for in the "Wanted" section as somebody here may have what you need.

Complete gasket sets are getting hard to find, so make sure you this before tearing into it.

I use the ARP head studs on all my 140 engines. You can find them a bit cheaper on Ebay.

The Heavy Duty (HD) radiator, same as radiator with air conditioning is more than adequate for cooling.

Early next year, I plan to do some youtube videos on rebuilding a 140. I am just swamped with other tasks at the moment.

I will be sure to post when I start here in the forums.

Ken
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Re: modifying the 140 2300 (what to do?)

Postby hammerdown7 » Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:20 pm

Before buying the sleeves, tear it down for inspection. If the bores are not scored and the pistons show little wear there is no need to sleeve it. A new set of rings and some mild driving for the first 500 miles with a non-synthetic oil should seat the new rings. As long as the engine is not over-heated the stock bores last a very long time. If the bores are scored then sleeving is the best option. Check the top inch or so of the outside of the cylinders for erosion. It has been seen that on occasion old antifreeze has deteriorated that area. If that area is bad, thick top sleeves would be in order. If the bores are good, chances are the rod and main bearings should be fine as long as the oil was changed regularly. Changing them is no big deal except for needing a new rear main seal.

Replacement cast pistons do show up occasionally on eBay. New rod and main bearings are readily available. Valve stem seals should be replaced, probably a good valve job is the only thing left to do on the head, the valve seats are hardened for use with lead-free gas and should be fine. Head studs make future disassembly much easier although the blocks do seem to take re-torqing the bolts without problems. I've probably had the head off and re-torqued on my Cosworth 4-5 times before going to studs.

The stock small radiator was only 12X12 inches. I believe you had mentioned before that the car had a/c and that would give you the larger radiator. The small factory bottom air deflector is important for getting good air flow through the radiator. The deflector also blocks off the opening between the grill area and the bottom of the radiator which helps create a negative air pressure under the car and moves more air through the radiator. You will not find a replacement radiator fan. The fins on the stock fan twist the opposite direction from ordinary fans because of the rotation of the fan. It rotates 'backwards' from what you would expect.

When replacing the water pump, grease both sides of the gasket. The water pump removes the slack out of the cam belt and when re-assembling it has to slide on the gasket. If you do not grease the gasket it is possible to tear the gasket and you'll be redoing it shortly. There is a special tool used to tension the pump/belt and you want to set it at 15lbs torque then tighten two of the four bolts to hold the pump in place before finishing installation. More than 15lbs. torque will put too much stress on the water pump bearing.

After break-in if you replace rings synthetic oils are fine, I've used Mobil 1 ever since it was available.

Dick
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Re: modifying the 140 2300 (what to do?)

Postby res0o7eb » Wed Nov 27, 2013 3:34 am

Or you could go this route in modifying the 140 - you asked!
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=595
Check out page 2.
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Re: modifying the 140 2300 (what to do?)

Postby rhyolite » Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:39 am

@ken
Thanx for the info, i'm currently into buying a gasket set from gotmud on the board, he's checking if everything is complete.
I located alot of parts on ebay already, the studs are even available in the netherlands, so i think/hope most parts are easy to obtain.

@dick
When i get this correct, what you are saying is following.
Open the engine and check in what condition it's in. If the block never overheated in the past and not really damaged i can do it without sleeving?
If the block is in good condition, replace piston rings, replace valves, valve stems and the seals. Check the rod and bearings and if neccesary replace them.

If i decide to not sleeve the engine, isn't that going to be risky when taking it on a holliday or something? Or is it true that as long as i keep checking oil and coolant
levels, everything will be fine? Is there a way to install something like a temperature gauge, so you can always check the temperature and pull over if it's getting to hot?

You mentioned i wouldn't be able to find a replacement fan, there are loads on ebay, you stated they were rotating in the opposite direction. Am i thinking to simple
when i say that when you mount the fan the other way around it does what it should do ? (or is fan replacement not really neccesary?)

I do have A/C so the radiator should be fine, that's good news. The original radiator was only 12x12" ? That's freaking tiny, even for european standards !! :)

Btw, in the first part of your reply you mentioned "some mild driving for the first 500 miles with a non-synthetic oil should seat the new rings"
later on you say "After break-in if you replace rings synthetic oils are fine". What is it ? :) Or is my english starting to misfire ? :)

@resOo7eb
Keeping it original, doesn't mean doing something like that :) I bet it's not even allowed in the Netherlands :) (yes i leave in a boring studid country :) )
The dutcH-bodies
- 1974 Vega hatchback
- 1975 Astre SJ Safari wagon
- 1975 Astre hatchback

- 1991 Jeep Wrangler YJ
- 1993 Jeep chief Cherokee XJ
- 1998 Chevrolet Camaro Y87 V6 3.8
rhyolite
 
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Location: The Netherlands

1975 Pontiac Astre

Re: modifying the 140 2300 (what to do?)

Postby hammerdown7 » Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:00 am

@dick
When i get this correct, what you are saying is following.
Open the engine and check in what condition it's in. If the block never overheated in the past and not really damaged i can do it without sleeving?
If the block is in good condition, replace piston rings, replace valves, valve stems and the seals. Check the rod and bearings and if neccesary replace them.
I would think the original valves and stems should be okay, a valve job is simply cleaning up the area on the valve where it meets the valve seat.

If i decide to not sleeve the engine, isn't that going to be risky when taking it on a holliday or something? Or is it true that as long as i keep checking oil and coolant
levels, everything will be fine? Is there a way to install something like a temperature gauge, so you can always check the temperature and pull over if it's getting to hot?
The problems the Vega engine had are almost entirely from over heating. Most did not have a/c and therefore, had the small radiator. In addition to the small radiator the cars did not have a radiator overflow tank, that was added in '73. So when the engine got to running temperature it pushed water out of the system, when it cooled down it sucked in air, more air led to hotter running until the inevitable happened. Adding an after-market temperature gauge should be easy to do.

You mentioned i wouldn't be able to find a replacement fan, there are loads on ebay, you stated they were rotating in the opposite direction. Am i thinking to simple
when i say that when you mount the fan the other way around it does what it should do ? (or is fan replacement not really neccesary?)
The stock fan should be fine, it's important that the fan shroud is in place, it directs the air flow on the backside of the radiator so the fan draws air through the entire radiator. If you take your fan and look at the edge of the blade it looks like this, \ , if you flip it 180 degrees, it looks like this, \ , it doesn't reverse it self to this, / . I found this out after buying an after-market fan many years ago. It's a case of your mind telling you something that seems logical but ends up not being true.

I do have A/C so the radiator should be fine, that's good news. The original radiator was only 12x12" ? That's freaking tiny, even for european standards !!

Btw, in the first part of your reply you mentioned "some mild driving for the first 500 miles with a non-synthetic oil should seat the new rings"
later on you say "After break-in if you replace rings synthetic oils are fine". What is it ? Or is my english starting to misfire ?
The new rings need to form themselves to the cylinder contour, a less slippery oil helps them do this quicker, usually 500 miles will be enough time for this to happen. We call this 'seating', the 500 miles can be referred to as 'break-in' or the time for the rings to 'seat'. I'm sure some of the terms we use over here differ from what you are use to. It can get confusing!

If you have any other questions ask away, everyone on this site tries to help. That's what makes this site so great.

Dick
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Re: modifying the 140 2300 (what to do?)

Postby rhyolite » Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:28 am

Thnx Dick :)

I think i will scoop out the engine when i have the chance and take a good look at it, I have to build my garage first, but untill then i'm trying to decide
what to do and get the parts and stuff i need :) (waiting for my tools right now, why do you americans use inches/pounds instead of the metric system anyway :), none of my tools fit, argh !)

About the terms and references, most of the time, especially your first reply in this threat, words like valves, stem seals, bearings, i have to search on google for pictures,
check what part you mean. Most things don't even sound the same :) Example, valves are on dutch "kleppen", if i would translate that roughly it would be something like "shutters" :)

But i'll manage, and if i really can't figure it out, they invented camera's a long time ago :)
The dutcH-bodies
- 1974 Vega hatchback
- 1975 Astre SJ Safari wagon
- 1975 Astre hatchback

- 1991 Jeep Wrangler YJ
- 1993 Jeep chief Cherokee XJ
- 1998 Chevrolet Camaro Y87 V6 3.8
rhyolite
 
Posts: 163
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:06 pm
Location: The Netherlands

1975 Pontiac Astre

Re: modifying the 140 2300 (what to do?)

Postby hammerdown7 » Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:05 pm

I think our cars converted to metric in the 80's but I can't tell you exactly when, so most of us have both metric and english size tools. That can be a hassle at times.

Dick
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Re: modifying the 140 2300 (what to do?)

Postby rpoz-29 » Sat Nov 30, 2013 9:46 pm

I agree with Dick regarding sleeving a 2300 Vega. I've bored the rest of this site with this story, but rhyolite may like it. Chevy had designed a 2liter cast iron engine with a cross flow head for the car, but GM had struck a deal with Reynold's Metal, (a huge aluminum manufacturer headquartered near my home), to design an aluminum block for the Vega. A local machinist was hired as a contractor to carry out work on the new aluminum engine. Lewis Robertson is the machinist's name and he still runs a machine shop. His knowledge of the aluminum blocks pretty impressive. He always advised against sleeving a Vega block, although he sleeved plenty of them in his own shop during the 70's and 80's. His reasoning is that a Vega block is 390 Aluminum, (think hyperuetectic pistons), which is something like 17% silicon 83% aluminum (with trace amounts of nickel, among other metals). It is simply a harder surface than the sleeves, (and used by Porsche and Mercedes in some engines). Remember, no H-Body, (Vega, Monza, Astre, Starfire, etc), EVER left the factory with sleeves. GM did sell sleeved replacement engines, but that was due to a lack of consumer confidence in the aluminum engine, rather than any real issues. Where GM dropped the ball was trying to cut corners on the engine. Reynolds designed the engine to run cast pistons and chrome rings. GM changed the "formula" of the pistons and rings to save a few dollars per car causing premature wear issues. This was one of the reasons Reynolds wanted out of the partnership.
In his opinion, the head on the Vega was far more to blame than the block for engine failures. GM technical designed and rushed the cast iron head into production because Reynolds was having issues with an aluminum cross-flow head it was developing. The head is prone to warping when overheated, and with that 12x12 radiator, they would heat up. You can, (and should), install a temperature gauge on your Vega, at the sending unit location for the temp light. I believe there is one on each side of the head. Something like 1/4" or 3/8" pipe thread. You may also want to add an oil pressure gauge.
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Re: modifying the 140 2300 (what to do?)

Postby rhyolite » Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:06 am

Hi Rpoz :)

Thought it was quite interesting actually :)
I think i'll keep the engine as original as possible, gonna check it out when i have the change and make up my mind about the sleeving when it's opened up :)

Thanx for the tip about the temp gauge install :) That will definately be neccesary, not only for the car/engine but also for me, so i'm not sitting completely stressed in the car when driving it :)

Btw, this will probably the dumbest question ever, but there are no aftermarket alu heads made for the engine? Or someone who makes them by hand? Cause when i get it all correctly, it's the head that's causing 90% of the problems.
Just asking :) You may laugh :)
The dutcH-bodies
- 1974 Vega hatchback
- 1975 Astre SJ Safari wagon
- 1975 Astre hatchback

- 1991 Jeep Wrangler YJ
- 1993 Jeep chief Cherokee XJ
- 1998 Chevrolet Camaro Y87 V6 3.8
rhyolite
 
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Location: The Netherlands

1975 Pontiac Astre

Re: modifying the 140 2300 (what to do?)

Postby hammerdown7 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:41 am

Tiemen,

You could always convert it with the Cosworth head and cam carrier, it all depends on how much you want to spend!

Dick
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Re: modifying the 140 2300 (what to do?)

Postby rhyolite » Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:47 am

Well, i'm not a budget, as long as my wife doesn't find out :)

Could you give me a little more details on that?
And you're not pointing me in a direction of completely rare parts aren't you? :)
The dutcH-bodies
- 1974 Vega hatchback
- 1975 Astre SJ Safari wagon
- 1975 Astre hatchback

- 1991 Jeep Wrangler YJ
- 1993 Jeep chief Cherokee XJ
- 1998 Chevrolet Camaro Y87 V6 3.8
rhyolite
 
Posts: 163
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:06 pm
Location: The Netherlands

1975 Pontiac Astre

Re: modifying the 140 2300 (what to do?)

Postby hammerdown7 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:39 pm

Not much rarer than Vega parts! At least not in the states. The block, crank and rods can be used with some mods. The original Cosworths were 2.0L with a shorter stroke crank. There are several stroked Cosworths over here, maybe 15-20, that equal the 2.3L displacement. The crank needs to have the nose turned down to fit the Cosworth crank cam pulley. You would need custom pistons and have the small end of the connecting rods bushed for the floating piston pins. With the new pistons you would need to sleeve the block since the after-market pistons do not have the special coating on them to make them compatible with the silicon bores. Used heads and cam carriers with stock cams are available, you can buy new valves if necessary. The water pump would need a either a new pulley or two more grooves machined into it for the wider cam belt. You would also need the factory stainless header for the exhaust. The intake side would typically run two side draft Webers. I believe your existing distributor will work. Re-built water pumps, new gasket sets, new cam belts are available from the CVOA (Cosworth Vega Owners Association) as well as some other parts.

Vega Craig on this site just completed a stroked version and he could explain what he had to do. I'll send him a note to join this thread.

Dick
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Re: modifying the 140 2300 (what to do?)

Postby rhyolite » Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:05 pm

Thanks for the details, but i think i'll stick to plan A :)
You mentioned alot of things beging modded and i think that will be very costly trying to do something on this side of the pond.
If i am able to get al the parts needed the shipping costs will go sky-high i guess.

But just for my interest, will a complete cosworth engine fit in my astre without to many hassle? Will the gearbox, carb, etc fit?
Just in case i come across one in the future ? Or do i have to swap out half of the car to get it in there ?(like a V6/V8 conversion?)
The dutcH-bodies
- 1974 Vega hatchback
- 1975 Astre SJ Safari wagon
- 1975 Astre hatchback

- 1991 Jeep Wrangler YJ
- 1993 Jeep chief Cherokee XJ
- 1998 Chevrolet Camaro Y87 V6 3.8
rhyolite
 
Posts: 163
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:06 pm
Location: The Netherlands

1975 Pontiac Astre

Re: modifying the 140 2300 (what to do?)

Postby hammerdown7 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 5:08 pm

It uses the same engine mounts and fits in the same place but if you have A/C it will interfere with that area of the firewall. It was only available with manual transmissions because of a lack of low end torque with the 2.0L version.

Dick
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